查看: 657|回复: 5
打印 上一主题 下一主题

[词典考据] chasten@韦氏高阶

[复制链接]

该用户从未签到

539

主题

3046

回帖

25万

积分

翰林院编修

Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11

积分
251446

翰林院专用章灌水大神章笑傲江湖章小蜜蜂章管理组专用章

跳转到指定楼层
1
发表于 2019-12-9 00:11:03 | 只看该作者 回帖奖励 |倒序浏览 |阅读模式
ESL 词典为了降低难度,使出了各种招数,有时候难免失误,韦氏高阶chasten就是一个:

to cause (someone) to feel sad or embarrassed about something that has happened使难过;使难堪
He was chastened [=humbled] by his team's defeat.
他的队伍战败,他感到无地自容。
— chastening
Having her proposal criticized was a chastening [=humbling] experience.
提案遭到批评,是一次令她羞愧的经历。
「难过」「难堪」「feel sad or embarrassed」这都太宽了,在电视上看见北极熊挨饿很难过很sad,这种情况能用chasten吗?不能。

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

If you say you would "castigate" or "chastise" someone in order to "chasten" them, you demonstrate a good knowledge of the origin of "chasten" - all three verbs derive from the Latin verb castigare, meaning "to punish." The trio shares an initial sense of "to subject to severe and often physical punishment," but all three verbs are now as likely to refer to a verbal dressing-down as a physical lesson. "Chasten" (which arrived in English via Anglo-French chastier) can also be used to mean "to prune of excess, pretense, or falsity." This led to the more general sense of "to make more subdued," although the humility can be imposed by a humiliating situation as easily as by a strict taskmaster.


韦氏高阶那个[=humbled],[=humbling] 倒是说对了,可惜humble 不是「基础X千词」里头的

其他ESL词典也有释义简单的问题,朗文:

to make someone realize that their behaviour was wrong or mistaken 惩戒,责罚,磨炼
汉译「惩戒,责罚,磨炼」是对的,只是读者难免纳闷,英文不是说「让某人意识到他们做错了」吗,怎么蹦出「磨炼」这种翻译来了?这就是ESL词典过度迁就初学者的恶果。

在牛津高阶4的时代,这个问题还不显著:

1. punish (sb) in order to correct or improve; discipline 惩罚(某人)(使之改正或改进);惩戒。
2. subdue (sb); restrain 遏制(某人);制止:
a chastening experience使人抑制的感受
He was chastened by his failure.他因失败而一蹶不振。
解释得很准,中英文也是统一的。(不过译文「制止」不太好)

英汉词典不需要迁就初学者,所以都挺正常。21世紀電腦英漢漢英雙向辭典 = 新世紀英漢辭典 = 新英和中辞典

1 a. (为矫正行为而) 惩罚< 人>
b. (给予折磨) 锻炼 [磨炼] < 人>
2 a. 抑制< 热情等> ; 缓和 < 脾气等>
b. 使 < 思想、文体等> 精练, 使…简洁; 推敲 [洗练, 琢磨] < 作品等>
顺便说一句,从Merriam-Webster 的解释来看,castigate、chastise、chasten三个词是有联系的,ESL词典会把这点讲清楚吗?还是洗洗睡吧
  • TA的每日心情
    慵懒
    2023-1-18 13:13
  • 签到天数: 539 天

    [LV.9]以坛为家II

    14

    主题

    1495

    回帖

    1万

    积分

    状元

    Rank: 9Rank: 9Rank: 9

    积分
    17223

    灌水大神章QQ 章

    2
    发表于 2019-12-9 08:03:36 | 只看该作者
    本帖最后由 han198808 于 2019-12-9 08:04 编辑

    剑桥高阶英汉双解词典(第4版) 来自:https://www.pdawiki.com/forum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=32254
    to make someone understand that they have failed or done something wrong and make them want to improve惩戒;磨炼;教训
    这个翻译还是挺好的。


    该用户从未签到

    539

    主题

    3046

    回帖

    25万

    积分

    翰林院编修

    Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11Rank: 11

    积分
    251446

    翰林院专用章灌水大神章笑傲江湖章小蜜蜂章管理组专用章

    3
     楼主| 发表于 2019-12-9 09:19:17 | 只看该作者
    han198808 发表于 2019-12-9 08:03
    剑桥高阶英汉双解词典(第4版) 来自:https://www.pdawiki.com/forum/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=32254
    t ...

    这个英文的问题跟别的ESL词典一样啊

    to make someone understand that they have failed or done something wrong and make them want to improve

    完全可以是:老师把同学叫到办公室,温和地教导,指出同学的错误(make someone understand that they have failed or done something wrong),让同学下次不要一边自习一边喧哗啦,下次注意哦(make them want to improve)

    读者看着就纳闷,这怎么就是「惩戒;磨炼;教训」了呢?

    如果像World Book那样说「to punish to improve; correct; discipline; chastise」,就不会出现上面的场景
  • TA的每日心情
    擦汗
    2021-3-1 09:31
  • 签到天数: 6 天

    [LV.2]偶尔看看I

    4

    主题

    199

    回帖

    1184

    积分

    解元

    Rank: 5Rank: 5

    积分
    1184
    4
    发表于 2019-12-9 19:06:28 | 只看该作者
    楼主看的很透彻!但是ESL到母语词典之间该怎么过渡呢?
  • TA的每日心情
    奋斗
    2020-9-11 09:13
  • 签到天数: 39 天

    [LV.5]常住居民I

    1

    主题

    109

    回帖

    1127

    积分

    解元

    Rank: 5Rank: 5

    积分
    1127

    QQ 章

    5
    发表于 2019-12-11 13:30:13 | 只看该作者
    瑕不掩瑜吧
  • TA的每日心情
    奋斗
    2020-9-11 09:13
  • 签到天数: 39 天

    [LV.5]常住居民I

    1

    主题

    109

    回帖

    1127

    积分

    解元

    Rank: 5Rank: 5

    积分
    1127

    QQ 章

    6
    发表于 2019-12-11 13:32:10 | 只看该作者
    瑕不掩瑜吧